Curse

Sir Tificate · Mar 01, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Here's an idea of how to improve caster damage toward viability in PvP without making spikes take off into the stratosphere. This may also work for rangers' +damage skills like powershot and whatnot.

Let's start with blood magic, as it seems to be a fairly good example of the problem.
Increase the damage output of all skills like Shadow Strike, Vampiric Gaze, Jaundiced Gaze and such, but put in the following two clauses:
1. Target foe suffers from bleeding for 1/2/3 seconds.
2. This Spell fails/deals half damage if your foe is already suffering from bleeding.
Exactly what the numbers are could vary from spell to spell.

Suddenly, blood magic spells can deal more damage, but can't all be cast on a target at once. This way, blood magic can be allowed to have usable damage without having to worry about 8 necro teams delivering un-protable spikes.

It works for other things too. To avoid rainbowspike, not many different conditions should be used, probably keep it down to bleeding and weakness.

----------------------------------
Notable problem: it suddenly becomes bad to inflict bleeding and weakness on enemies.
Solution: make up another condition:

Overwhelmed
While suffering from this condition, your skills and attacks activate 33% slower.

This could replace bleeding in the blood magic example and could be attached to all sorts of high damage skills so that singular attack spells could be powerful, but nonstackable. Also, skills that are generally powerful have an extra little side effect that makes defending against a singular one yourself more difficult.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Complaints? PvE/PvP related problems with this?

Kanyatta · Mar 01, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Nerf blood spike? Yes please!

lutz · Mar 01, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

That just encourages rainbow spike builds.

Sir Tificate · Mar 01, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Then it'll probably go with the second option, the Overwhelmed condition.
If all the spiking skills cause the same condition, then only the first to hit has the full effect, and the rest are reduced as the foe is already affected by the condition.

About the only thing I can think of is spiking with "nonspike" skills, various skills that are too weak to warrant the Overwhelmed condition. However, spiking with Flare and one Lightning Orb or something causes its own problems.

MagmaRed · Mar 01, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

[skill]Restore Condition[/skill]

Isn't that skill used a lot? Or at least Dismiss, Mending Touch, etc.? You are forcing teams to LEAVE conditions on to prevent spikes.

Now, you also have new ways to add conditions, WHILE DEALING MORE damage. This looks like a way to bring back a different kind of spike.

[skill]Fragility[/skill]

/unsigned

Trylo · Mar 01, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

aww magma said it...

but just to reiterate:

[skill]Fragility[/skill]

it would shift from spikes... straight to [skill]fevered dreams[/skill] pressure

Sir Tificate · Mar 02, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

[skill]Restore Condition[/skill]

Isn't that skill used a lot? Or at least Dismiss, Mending Touch, etc.? You are forcing teams to LEAVE conditions on to prevent spikes.

Now, you also have new ways to add conditions, WHILE DEALING MORE damage. This looks like a way to bring back a different kind of spike.

[skill]Fragility[/skill]

/unsigned

If the first copy of the condition is removed during the spike, then the second spike hit will cause it, thereby reducing the rest of the spike. It takes some impressive condition-removing gymnastics to remove the condition often enough to get a spike to go through. The condition itself won't last long enough to stop the next spike anyway, so it isn't particularly bad to remove it anyway.

As for removing the condition, ideally it won't be a particularly damaging condition in and of itself over the 2 or 3 seconds it lasts. Bleeding and weakness aren't particularly devastating if only applied for a moment or two, unless some impressive anti-adrenspike timing or gash timing is used, at which point the caster deserves it, I think. Otherwise, if the suggested Overwhelmed condition is a bit strong, it can be weakened. It isn't ment to seriously hinder the target.

As for fragility, it could be a problem if the suggestion goes with each of the spike skills offering a different condition, maybe 3 conditions to trigger Fragility 6 times somewhere between 1 and 3 seconds, depending on the skills used. However, if they all apply the suggested Overwhelmed condition, that is just 2 hits of Fragility from a spell, all of 42 damage at 16 Illusion magic, and spaced apart between 1 and 3 seconds, as the additional copies of the condition don't stack Fragility damage.

Anything else that needs to be cleared up in this suggestion?

Killed u man · Mar 02, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

/signed

Nice solution to the current problem with Warriors (And loldervs) > ALL in GvG...

Every since the beginnign of GW Warriors weren't rly a choice, but a MUST in GvG. Caster pressure does infact needa buff, whilst spikes need a small nerf...

MagmaRed · Mar 02, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I still see a problem with giving spells the ability to apply a condition that did not originially do so. Conditions offer different forms of punishment. Blind and Weakness will kill a physical damage class's ability to deal damage. Bleeding, Poison, and Disease all offer pressure that makes the Monks spend energy.

To prevent a spike, you are adding a different problem. True, Fragility would require several different conditions, and your idea is not adding a large number. However, it is adding a condition with a skill that did not do so previously. Lifebane Strike did not supply a condition, but your idea is to make it cause bleeding. You also want to boost the damage. So now you deal more damage AND cause bleeding to your target. Bleeding kicks in on Fragility once when added, and again when removed. This can allow for Gash, Vilrulence, etc. to follow it, and do more damage from those skills, AND key Fragility again.

Bleeding may seem minor, as its only -3 degen. However, that degen is pressure for the team to deal with. If they remove it, they allow the next stage of the spike to trigger. If they don't, they allow Gash to be used, or they deal with constant health loss.

There are already ways to deal with spikes. Changing the game in such drastic ways would cause a complete overhaul of the balance. That may be needed, but that is a seperate suggestion to make.

Pleikki · Mar 02, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

/notsigned Dont nerd bloodspike :d its fun with naab friends

Stc95 · Mar 02, 2008, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I dont think it would be a good idea. As Magma said its going from one kind of spike to another. If this were to happen then fragilily would have to become nerfed to the point that they should just make it a PvE skill.

and i was under the impression that Anet wanted more deaths in PvP. Or at least thats why the nerfed LoD. Spikes are a part of PvP. and so far we have learned to roll with the hits. If we nerf one spike another will take its place in a week or two. Its how PvP works.

Sir Tificate · Mar 02, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Okay, it seems there are more thorns in the existing Condition mechanic than I expected, so I've got another idea, basically the same, except it no longer involves "Conditions."

Example skill:

Shadow Strike
Spell. Target foe takes 16...67 shadow damage. If that foe's Health is above 50%, you steal 16...67 Health. This Spell is Overwhelms your foe for 2 seconds, and deals no damage to an Overwhelmed foe.
Cost: 10 Cast: 2 Recharge: 8

Overwhelmed is another effect, not a Condition, that is visible on the enemy health bar. It has no direct effect, except that some skills don't work on foes that are Overwhelmed.

This effect could be half used in various skills, such as skills that Overwhelm but work on Overwhelmed foes, or skills that don't work on Overwhelmed foes but don't Overwhelm. Overhwhelming related effects would be limited to caster skills, since Physicals seem to be okay right now with their various drawbacks.

Why am I changing what doesn't seem to be broken?
Because I think a singular caster should be able to do a notable amount of damage as compared to now, but any simple buffs just bring up caster spikes, which cause their own problems. I think caster damage should be a playable substitute for physical damage with its own drawbacks, but not drawbacks that push pure damage casters so completely out of the game.

Of course, if there is a serious problem with that goal, then I will probably give up on this idea.

MagmaRed · Mar 02, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

I have never understood the push for physical damage dealers. I know they do considerable damage consistently. However, most casters can do MORE damage, just not as consistently.

If you look at the typical damage from skills, a melee/physical class will be doing roughly 30-50 per hit. They also have to deal with Blind, Weakness, Block, etc. Now, consider a caster class, and they can deal 50-100 damage per spell, not worry about blind, block, and not worry about walls for most spells. Weakness will still lower their damage though.

Only problem with caster damage is recharge times, and occassionally casting times. I may be an idiot for thinking this, but I think physical damage is not always the best source for damage.

Now, having said that, your idea, I think, is not about the game, but about the community. Casters have the ability to do well in PvP (in my opinion), but the community is set in its ways. Your idea is to encourage new styles of play, while the style isn't in need of a buff (in my opinion).

HawkofStorms · Mar 02, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

/signed
I think a lot of people on these forums don't understand this suggestion. He wants to INCREASE the damage of blood spike skills while added the above conditions. It makes a lot of sense. The reason a lot of ele skills aren't spikeable is becuase they are either projectiles or beause they cause degen (usually through burning) so they can't be stacked.
Now, doesn't it make a lot of sense for something called "Blood Magic" to make people bleed? Its such a good, simple solution that would improve the meta. Blood spikes would die, but you might actually see necros become viable in "balanced" 8v8 GvG teams as a way to deal out damage and add bleeding.

This could also lead to some interesting defensive tactics. Monks leaving bleeding on to reduce the damage output from the necro for example. Or the opposing blood necro will bring barbed signet and not remove it from himself. Some people (MagmaRed in particular) didn't sign because of this. I'm signing because of this. Creating new decisions, choices to make, and strategies in PvP make a more lively meta.